|
Author
|
Topic: Really long zooms?
|
nasq
|
posted 12-25-2000 12:39 PM
Hi, I just got this nice book about film making. It has a tip how to make a really long zoom, like the ones you see movies (zooming from man to skies, etc.). It suggests doing the zoom in several parts, first zoom from some little detail out, then put your camera further away and zoom in so that the view matches the view you just zoomed out. But I got a big problem with this method, how to match the views? Should I use some kind of marking system, or what? I hope at least someone understood what I tried to explain here  |
DigiteyeZ
|
posted 12-25-2000 04:01 PM
actually, i'm not sure what you're talking about but i'm surprised your filmmaking book is teaching you how to do zooms, as zooms are never used in real filmmaking. maybe it's giving you tips to mimick a crane or dolly effect? (which most of us need zooms to do)anyways, dollying out and matching the framing by zooming in is difficult to get right. it's used by itself as a "Hitchcock effect" where it creates intensity by changing the field of view of the background but keeping the person's face in the same framing. (am i making any sense?) it's probably easier to start with the slowest zoom possible and adapt how much you dolly to match it (faster zooming and dollying is more difficult). anyways, what's the name of your book? |
nasq
|
posted 12-25-2000 04:44 PM
Yeah, U didn't get my point I meant like zooming out of a beetle to a close-up. And then zooming out of the close-up to mid-shot. For example zooming all the way out from the close-up to a shot from skyscraper. |
Prism
|
posted 12-25-2000 04:51 PM
There's an older movie, by Disney, I believe.. it's a nature film called "Animals are beautiful people"... I believe there is one part in the film where they are showing a map, and then they zoom into the map, then cut to a zooming picture of an actual location on that part of the map. Not exactly seamless, but it's kind of a nifty effect.Isaiah ------------------
Isaiah, "Sound Guy" Eyre
www.iEyre.com |
Gamecat
|
posted 12-26-2000 03:54 AM
Ummm... why would you say that zooms are "never" used in "real" film making? I've seen plenty of films that use zooms. I guess they were fake... |
ADOM
|
posted 12-26-2000 03:58 AM
I would match the shots as reasonably as you could and then instead of cuts use dissolves to make the transitions. You see this a lot in movies where they shot with a satelite shot and zoom in to Earth, to a city, to s street, to a person. The dissolves are usually bridge with some kind of audio like a wind noise or a musical beat.ADOM |
DigiteyeZ
|
posted 12-26-2000 02:23 PM
GC: the zooms you see are most probably dollys (physically moving the camera in and out). really, no modern film has a zoom in any shot (there can be a few exceptions). dollys look a lot more proffessional. the reason is that zooming does not mimick any normal human perspective. if you examine a shot closely you will see how different dollys look from zooms.i believe it was there was a period from 1966-1970 that zooms were used is movies. one example is The Graduate. there are a few zooms in that movie. in the 70's however the film industry realized dollys worked a lot better than zooms. in a filmmaking class, one of the first things my instructor had us learn is this phrase: "Adolf Hitler, Charles Manson, zooms. They're all evil." |
Pheral
|
posted 12-26-2000 02:46 PM
I'm sorry, DigiteyeZ, but I am not at all convinced that you know what you're talking about.
|
Smiley Films
|
posted 12-26-2000 04:19 PM
he nose what he is talking about. they dolly, not zoom, zooming in on something(while recording) just flatens the image(check mr huts post next to this one). But back to the original question, i would dolly and tehn speed it up, like mi2 where it whizes through the mountains and then slows down when it gets up close to tom cruise.[This message has been edited by Smiley Films (edited 12-26-2000).] |
nasq
|
posted 12-26-2000 09:24 PM
How can I dolly from a close-up to several hundreds of meters :? I mean I really don't have any budget at all. I don't even have access to a normal dolly. |
Smiley Films
|
posted 12-27-2000 02:21 AM
good point mabey try zooming then morphing each zoom so it looks like a super long one. and speed your footage up! the morphes will be less noticable. |
Gamecat
|
posted 12-27-2000 08:00 AM
Digitize, I know the differenece between a zoom and a dolly. My point was to say that "no real film uses zooms" is silly. Zooms are another tool in a film-makers bag of tricks that if used properly can enhance your film just like anything else. The key statement here is "used properly". Just like anything else you do it must be done corectly and for a good reason. Even dollying has to be done corrctly or it will hurt, not help your film. True zooms have taken on a home movie or news document quality, but once again don't you think this is something that can be played up by a film maker in his film. What about if you're doing a "Man Bites Dog" esque piece, (if you've never seen this film I suggest you rent it imediatly) which is a self referential piece. Perhaps we watch as the cinematographer sets up his shot using a zoom lense. Or think about a film like american beauty where the actor controls a video camera as we watch? There are plenty of movies that use zooms as well instead of dollys. Why? Because they are low budget (like our films) and often cannot afford the cost of setting up a good dolly. My point is that there are plenty of other styles of film making then the Classic hollywood studio paint by numbers film making style. To think otherwise is bad, especially when you're a low budget film maker. We need every trick we can get our hands on to compete with the big budgets. Film making is about creation not emulation. Every word, every color every angle every lense every movement should have a reason that isn't "cause thats how it's done." It should be done to help realise your dreams as a director. You are trying to convey your thoughts and feelings to another human being and in doing so you need to decide the best way to do so. If you feel that a particular shot needs to be done in a way that violates thw "rules" of film making by all means do so, but like anything you do, be sure you know why you're doing it. Thats the reason film schools teach you the rules in the first place, so you know why you're doing something and can make an educated decision as opposed to "because thats how so and so did it..." Don't consrict your creativity by limiting the tools in your bag.[This message has been edited by Gamecat (edited 12-27-2000).] |
morpherguy
|
posted 12-27-2000 01:16 PM
Zooming is still used all the time. It always kills me when someone says something like "zooming isn't done in real movies". Zooming is an important tool used to help tell stories and there is no reason to stop using it or to replace it with other techniques. |
Pheral
|
posted 12-27-2000 03:49 PM
Amen. |
Gamecat
|
posted 12-27-2000 06:49 PM
morpher my point exactly. |
Erik S
|
posted 12-27-2000 08:21 PM
What kind of film teacher tells you zoom's were only used from 1966-1970? This person doesn't know what he/she is talking about, or was that just something that YOU thought was fact?
It's a sad thing, but sometimes on these boards, if you say something like you just did without the actual knowledge of what is true, you will get BURNED. I'm not here to make fun of you Digiteyez, but those were some pretty inacurate statements you made there fella.
First of all, the dolly came before the zoom, way before, and it was not something that they (Hollywood) "realized" in the 70's. Do you know how many movies were made in that four year period that didn't use zoom's, but used dollies? too many to count. The zoom came before 1966 as well and they are still used my friend. You can use a zoom many, many ways, not just for zooming in on a subject. You are right in that respect, you don't see them used that way too much (but they still are).
There were a lot of zoom's during that time peroid you speak of though, many lens manufactures were comming out with higher quality products and there was a small "zoom fad" for a while. It was just people experimenting, they never for once thought a zoom could or would replace a dolly as you insinuated. There is nothing that can replace physically moving the camera during a shot, Hollywood has always known this... So, Digiteyez, maybe you should open up a book similar to what Nasq has and do some learning of your own? You should never believe everything a teacher tells you just because he is your teacher...good luck and happy learning, you've got a way to go. |
DigiteyeZ
|
posted 12-28-2000 01:47 AM
yeah, i can see i'm getting burned here... i think everyone either missed my point or misunderstood what i was saying. i don't mean to come off like a know-it-all (sometimes the transfer from thoughts to text reads differently). i didn't mean to imply that ONLY zooms were used in films during that period of time, obviously there's always been many methods. i more meant the "fad" thing. and of course rules can be broken when you have a reason to; i was merely implying a "principle". i just think a filmmaking book designed for Hollywood wouldn't promote zoom-usage very much. of course people like us have to make adjustments for what is practical and affordable. and of course if not used live during a shot, zooms are great for setting up shots, totally. i still stick to my principle, however, that zooms do not look very proffessional, dollys look a lot better, and zooms are used very sparingly in Hollywood. make of it what you might. |
ADOM
|
posted 12-28-2000 02:11 AM
Although this has become an interesting discussion on experimental and low budget filmaking vs the Hollywood machine, does anyone remember the original question? Nasq is looking for a way to do a smooth transition (be it by zoom, dolly or camera mounted on the roof of an 87 Civic) from an ECU to super wide shot.Morphs and dissolves can help bridge the gaps (as suggested earlier), but I still have not come up with a method to make the transition completely smooth. I am interested in the answer, however. ADOM PS As for lenses not seen much since the `60's and `70's, does anyone still own a fisheye? |
morpherguy
|
posted 12-28-2000 01:12 PM
My favorite kind of zooms are the ones that are almost un-noticable. Panavision has an accessory for zoom lenses that allows you to zoom in so slowly that is sometimes is not noticed by the audience but it serves to make an ordinary static shot into something more interesting. |
SAFilms
|
posted 12-30-2000 04:26 AM
well i agree with you, DigiteyeZ, you need support. |
DigiteyeZ
|
posted 12-30-2000 05:00 PM
thanks, SAFilms and SmileyFilms for your support and for understanding my point... i think everyone has a lot to learn from this thread. for me, be careful about EVERY single word you write because others will take it and mangle it up to mean things you hadn't intended. and for certain other people in this post (not all), don't talk to others like they're stupid little kids, it's not appreciated. if you don't think someone else know's what they're talking about, there's nicer ways of expressing your disagreements. so i'm happy to retire from this topic and in the future i will try to express my opinion with less severity (to save myself from the wolves)... no hard feelings all... [This message has been edited by DigiteyeZ (edited 12-30-2000).] |
dogcow
|
posted 12-30-2000 05:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DigiteyeZ:
actually, i'm not sure what you're talking about but i'm surprised your filmmaking book is teaching you how to do zooms, as zooms are never used in real filmmaking.
Perhaps in Hollywood they are rarely used but check out almost any film made in Italy and Hong Kong from the late 1960s to the Mid-1980s and you'll see zooming that could enduce a seizure. Jackie Chan should be arrested for abuse of a zoom lense for some of the films he directed like Project A and The Young Master. He uses it enough as to be irritating. I have seen zooms used in Hollywood films too, one of my favorite shots in Shaft(1971)
is the intro when we see Roundtree walking between the taxi cabs and zoom out from above. It makes a very neat effect. Sam Raimi also used zooms in his evil dead films, but he uses alot of weird camera tricks so that may not count. -nick |
