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Author
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Topic: BIG BIRD problems
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starbug2001
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posted 02-19-2001 10:37 PM
Hi there. I need some help/ideas for my film I will be starting soon. Its a drama/artsy type film (16 mm) and the main theme is the relationship of the main character and birds. (They represent her spirit)
That said, I need birds! I dont know what would be the best way to go about this. I need a bird that will fly along side the character's car when she is driving. I am thinking the only way to do it is special fx? Or is there another way?
I also need a live bird for close ups. I am thinking a crow...but IF i find a bird, how will i get the bird to co-operate? Has anyone ever attempted this before?
Any comments would be greatly appreciated. |
crazy lou
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posted 02-19-2001 10:44 PM
well, a live bird and trainer will probably run you a pretty penny (or two with the exchange rate) unless you can find one to donate time in exchange for credit.the easiest ways to do it might be CG or a puppet crow, or a mixture of both. I'd use a mix of both if i were making the film. if you want feel free to email me and i'll help you try to make a puppet crow or give you some pointers later
TOm ------------------
What everyone seems to forget is that once we look past race, religion, gender, and all that, everyone on this planet is first and foremost... ...a PERSON new and improved links(added to 02/11/01) |
dstepson
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posted 02-19-2001 11:36 PM
Getting a bird to cooperate is easy, but it takes time. First gain its trust by giving it bird seeds and water. Then feed it a few worms. The bird will start to come around more then whistle to it. Now that it is like a friend take a stick and bash its head in the throw some Salt and pepper on it and toss it on the grill. The rest of the birds in the hood will want to stay on your good side. Sorry I couldn't resist. Your best bet is to do green screen. quote:
This is TOO funny dstepson - "birds in the hood". Now THAT is a funny title someone should latch on to real quick. But YOU coined the phrase so I guess that means you want some artistic credit right?  Funny!FXMan
[This message has been edited by FXMan (edited 02-20-2001).] |
crazy lou
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posted 02-20-2001 12:06 AM
another person who earns the title "crazy"Crazy dstepson, i didnt even see that one coming, but i think he has a point, fear is a good motivator l
T ------------------
What everyone seems to forget is that once we look past race, religion, gender, and all that, everyone on this planet is first and foremost... ...a PERSON new and improved links(added to 02/11/01) [This message has been edited by crazy lou (edited 02-20-2001).] |
sketchman
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posted 02-20-2001 12:27 AM
another classic case that emphasizes knowing your limits before embarking on a production. sorry. |
crazy lou
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posted 02-20-2001 01:43 AM
i wouldnt necessarily say that sketch, if nobody pushed the limits we wouldnt have star wars (the good ones not E1:TPM {the toiletpaper menace})as long as you don't plan on filming this bird thing like tomorrow and can shell out the time and/or money involved to do it. I know starbug2001 said "soon" but the book of Revelation and prophets of doom have been saying the end of the world would occur "soon" Perhaps try looking into taxidermists for "bird forms" that could be used to quickly get a puppet body underway, Van dykes has some heads for sale including a crow head. birds dont really have that many odd movements to recreate, so it may be simple to build a basic cable controlled bird puppet, and incorporate CG for very specific "facial expressions" later
Tom ------------------
What everyone seems to forget is that once we look past race, religion, gender, and all that, everyone on this planet is first and foremost... ...a PERSON new and improved links(added to 02/11/01) |
sketchman
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posted 02-20-2001 02:00 AM
again, i'm being misquoted...
yes, we should push our limits to create better things than have been done before. but it's one thing to not be able to do an effect or whatever, and another is to create an entire story without ANY regard as to what you CAN do. i can sit at my computer for a whole week and crank out a space opera with aliens and wars and all, but when it comes down to actually making it, i'll most likely end up cutting out or rewriting a good half of the shots because i was not able to make them. i whole-heartedly believe that as amateur or low-budget moviemakers (whichever you choose to call yourself), you just have to realize there's things you can't do. you can create an epic story greater than gladiator or psycho, but fact is, you'll never make it the way you want it.
i know i'm being pessimistic, but frankly, i believe i'm right.------------------
Monkey Sea Entertainment - renovated as of January 2001
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Moviemakers Portal (moviemaking-only search engine) |
morpherguy
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posted 02-20-2001 02:26 AM
I agree with you to a certain extent Sketchman but the truth is that there are many ways to solve a complex problem. I find that the best way is to break it down into its simplest element then deal with them one by one. It really wouldn't be that diffecult to have some birds appear to be flying along side of a car if you break it down into carefully planned storyboards. If you were to shoot some bird puppets on blue screen with careful consideration to their relationship to the car and the camera then you could key them onto a background plate of a car passing by. You may not want this shot to be very long or the "trick" might become obvious but with good storyboards and some clever editing, I think it would work. |
Sarge
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posted 02-20-2001 12:36 PM
Sorry, guys, but I agree with sketchman's original post. Writing anything on paper, or silicon, is easy. Translating it to picture isn't. And, with all resect due him, I think starbug2001 might be best served to rethink doing this project right now.
NOT that he should abandon it. Only that he should perhaps experiment with smaller works while LEARNING how to do things like green screen, which assumes a lot of space and edit power; or puppetry, which assumes a lot of technical and mechanical skill.
Learning to walk, like learning to make movies, is a series of small successes, not an overnight breakthrough.
Having hereby rained on starbug2001's parade, I would like now to offer encouragement. Everyone here has looked at a project and gotten shivers down their back. But if you break the problem into small enough pieces (as was suggested earlier), it becomes less intimidating. But, as I have stated many times before, the more you know how to do YOURSELF, the better your projects will be. Sarge
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sketchman
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posted 02-20-2001 04:49 PM
thanks, sarge! and before i rant on, i apologize to starbug for turning this into a battlefield.
sarge reminds me of another point; everywhere, in film school, in life, even here on LAS, people ask questions on how to do stuff and usually get answers. but let's face facts; most of us can't do it. yes, i know about blue screen, matting, alphas, compositing, etc. etc., but i cannot produce a quality image combining bluescreen elements with real elements. it looks cheap. my audience will linger on the fact that the FX sucked for a minute or two, even though the story goes on.
case in point... for my current production i will incorporate a little bit of CG. but only stuff i know i can get away with. one scene in particular has a wine glass melting. how can i do this? because the shot will be in a dark room, and the glass will only be seen because of it's highlights and reflections. were it done in a bright room, it'd look like crap.
by no means am i trying to shut down starbug's project. writing is an art itself. and more power to you for trying to make an art film (not exactly my forte). but like sarge said, try something less complex and build on that. george lucas did that with the special editions, adding some new CG stuff to test audiences before going on to make episode 1 (sidebar: am i the only one who thinks the CG jabba in the special editions blew giant chunks???).------------------
Monkey Sea Entertainment - renovated as of January 2001
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Moviemakers Portal (moviemaking-only search engine) |
Nayman
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posted 02-20-2001 05:41 PM
I would suggest finding someone local who is a magician.yes, a magician i have worked with doves, they simply stay where you put them, excpet if you squeeze there ribs, the take a poo. new suit |
CaptainStubby
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posted 02-20-2001 06:47 PM
I was about to suggest doves myself. Then I read Nayman's post. But who needs original thought? 
I've worked with doves a couple of times doing still photography. I got some excellent motion shots by having the magician who owned them toss them at the camera and then back out of the frame. They weren't trained to do anything more than fly around until they landed on his hand. They were also calm enough that other people besides the owner could handle them without causing an "incident"
Too bad doves are that bright white though.. not as artsy as raven black. |
crazy lou
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posted 02-20-2001 06:54 PM
low budget is too vague a description to be arguing over why starbug shouldn't do this. or sitting there saying to start smaller. For all we know there could be a 25000 budget behind a 15 minute long filmIf starbug was simply asking for ideas of different ways to do it OR have it done, seems a lot of people here suddenly got the idea that since the majority of people here do stuff in their backyards all by themselves that everyone does. movies have huge crews for a reson, all those people do different things. Find someone to do the crow stuff for you if you cant do it yourself starbug. later
TOm ------------------
What everyone seems to forget is that once we look past race, religion, gender, and all that, everyone on this planet is first and foremost... ...a PERSON new and improved links(added to 02/11/01) |
starbug2001
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posted 02-20-2001 07:40 PM
Ooooh boy...thanks for freaking me out now and makeing me feel as if I can't/shouldn't do it!!! 
Ahh your probably right...but the truth hurts.
But thank you~to those who gave me advice Anyways, i will attempt it. I will TRY to find someone who has a crow/pigeon who will lend it to me. I think a puppet will look too fake for the CU shots.
I still need advice though on how to do the FX. I filmed crows flyin in the sky from the ground...and I was wondering if i could just key out the background in photoshop (using the filmstrip thing) and import it back into premiere and place the clip over the driver's window of the car. Will that work? What is a better, more proffessional way to do it? Should i bluescreen the bird? Thank you all for help, The Nervous Wreck |
Jeff F
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posted 02-21-2001 02:26 AM
Here's my vote:Right down the middle.
It is pretty difficult to do this type of thing with a great deal of realism.
Yet many student film makers aren't going to produce movies indistinguishable from hollywood offering with the skills, tools, and budgets they have availaable. SOme know this and can live with results that aren't of commercial quality. Others demand movies that could pass for the "real deal." Reaching for something that is beyond you can push you to new heights. It can also lead to great disappointment. I suppose a lot of this depends on how "great" you want the end result to be, how much of a perfectionist you are, how tied you are to it working out versus being satisfied with the experience of a taking a shot at it, and how stringent your standards are in general. A tough assignment, one likely to end with mixed results, but definitely a learning experience. If time is an issue, you might want to take a pass on this, but if it isn't give it a shot. You may not be happy wth your results, but they might turn out acceptable. BTW - If I were shooting this I'd have an edge - a friend of mine owns an educational presentation company (school assemblies, etc) and trains animals, including a variety of birds. I'd cast one of his birds or have him train one for me if I had enough preproduction time. That said, animal actors aren't as predictable and open to direction as one would like!
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Jeff F - Moderator
Magic and FX
Amazing the Masses [This message has been edited by Jeff F (edited 02-21-2001).] |
potmonkey
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posted 02-21-2001 03:51 PM
You said yourself it was an artsy film, so why don't you have a go at animating the birds by hand - like drawing the animation. I think they'd look cool if you didn't see tooo much of them, and it was done in an obvious style (ie, not trying to hide the fact they are hand animated)... Kind of romantic, i think. |
ADOM
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posted 02-22-2001 02:23 AM
Two suggeestions:
1. I like the idea of going for a surreal look by hand animating or even Computer animating the crow, but you may want to use a transition from you rlive shot, like a dissolve to mix the two.2. CHeck out the web and libraries for anything you cna find on the making of "The Crow" and "The Raven". There may be some info there you can use. ADOM PS Back in August I made movie with two dogs, a cat and a few human actors. It was a short and in B&W/silent (to make commanidng the dog easier) After months of rejection letters from film festivals it will be screened in two weeks at the Tambay Festival. I guess my point is, decide whether or not you can shoot around the problems. Compromising on your idea can be difficult, but if this is the project you want to do now then figure out a way to get your idea across and do it the best you can.
PPS By the way I did shoot that in my backyard,but that's what the story called for. It's kind of how I picked the script.
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starbug2001
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posted 02-24-2001 09:51 PM
Hey thanks for the suggestions I love the idea of animating the bird, like disney-style...but thats very time consuming and i dont know how to do animation.
So heres what i did, I bought a dove for 30 bucks and i'll hopefully train him myself He's not black like I wanted...but i dont want to dye him black because people say thats cruel. (although thats what magicians do)
So if anyone knows how to train birds a few tips would be really helpful!! |
Sarge
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posted 02-24-2001 10:54 PM
Well, for starters, you need a really big whip...Sarge |
dstepson
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posted 02-25-2001 12:20 PM
FX Man, Birds In The Hood? LOL. You can use it, but I want credit and of course some of the loot you make off of it. | |
