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Author
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Topic: Large Scale Gun Battles
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Ghent_ep
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posted 03-12-2000 10:54 PM
Alright, I've been doing alot of browsing around this forum, and it's absolutely incredible. I'm very impressed, wished something like this was available 10 years ago =) However, I have one issue which I can't seem to dig up through the archives, I've found all the articles on single blood/body shots, using air cannons for terrain bullet hits, and even zirconium or dust filled spark hits from a paintball gun. This is great for simple short sequences, but what about a large choreographed gun battle sequence with multiple bullet hits on terrains as well as on the stuntmen, that need to be timed exactly right and in the same sequence. Plus the fact that having all these tubes tied into the victims restricts their movements, which means we can't have the victims do midair drops, kick backs, or the ability to fall off objects, etc. The only possible way I can see something like this done is with some kind of squib packed charge wired up on all the choreographed target areas, then wiring them all up to a nail board for which will have a series of nails which when struck will trigger the according hit. For the free fights and high mobility, the charge would actually have to be attached to the stunt man's body which will be triggered by remote control for the proper effect. Unfortunately, as mentioned here, any form of squib ignited charge is dangerous to an extent, and our crew is completely content with the risk, but it's still extremely expensive, as well as the fact that if I were to acquire manufactured squibs I will require a pyrotechnics permit. If we can't find any other solution, we'll have to go that route, but if there are some creative minds out there that have any ideas on how to control a choreographed gun fight ala your typical Hong Kong action film. That would be fantastic. Otherwise these are some great articles for really short and realistic fights, but the methods I have found so far have no real efficient way of pulling off 100's of on screen hits with full control off screen. Thanks.------------------
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Ghent
Endor Productions, Inc. |
Dale Jenner
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posted 03-13-2000 04:32 AM
Most of the ground hits in the D-Day scene in saving private ryan were done using compressed air cannons, which is the same sort of thing as the body hits, they used a network of air cannons buried in the sand, small ones for bullet hits and larger ones for mortar and grenade explosions, of course they did use some squibs and explosives for ground hits but for the amount they needed it would have been too expensive. As far as i know most of the body hits were compressed air or computer graphics, except for when them guys got their leg blown off by a mortar, they had fake legs fitted with small explosive charges to blow the leg off.
Using compressed air may seem expensive at first but it can be used over and over and over, where as a squibs can be used once.Dale Jenner |
Ghent_ep
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posted 03-13-2000 09:15 AM
How are you supposed to control individual bursts from compressed cannons though? You would require multiple tanks, or some kind of dimmer switch to cut of the blast division by division. I do not believe Hollywood has any issues with the expense of squibs, so I'm certain that 95% of all hits on the environment and blood/body hits are always squibs. I've been out of touch with observing the industry for about 3 years now, but I don't think that they've changed that much. If there are any articles or behind the scenes videos behind recent movies using this sort these new methods I'd like to check em out. Head shots and large gore shots generally the only shots I know of that they use compressed cannons for, the rest are squib triggered charges behind blood packs with strong guards behind them to direct the blast away from the actor, making it very unlikely for them to get injured. I'm not sure about them doing many of them with CGI either because in actuality, although it really doesn't matter in Hollywood, it's more expensive to do such a small effect digitally then a $7 squib and blood pack. Compared to 10-20 Gig of disc space for a 10 second sequence of digitized film. So right now, we're still at square one here, we can do single blasts or maybe 4-5 of at a time, but we can't do 100+ of them, and we don't have exact control of them. Anyone else have any suggestions?------------------
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Ghent
Endor Productions, Inc. |
Ghent_ep
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posted 03-13-2000 09:27 AM
One last thing, we've covered alot of environments such as sand, glass, fake brick and alabaster. But what about bullet hits on wood etc, how do you get the same effect as a squib on balsa wood, it's much safer around an actor than any form of projectile blast and it looks much more effective. Commonly the will bore out the offscreen side of the wood as to have only a thin layer on the front the board for the blast to project through, it is then wood glued in with a strong plastic or metal making it impossible to fire out the back, and then wired to the nail board for all the blasts. When it goes off, no only does it give a fantastic chip, but it also gives a burn/scar mark with the chip. Something we can't really duplicate with air blasts, let alone have individual control off. So that's the other question I have, if there are any other options in that direction. Thanks.------------------
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Ghent
Endor Productions, Inc. |
MattSell
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posted 03-13-2000 11:39 AM
This is back to the body hits, but it might help some. You could use some sort of smaller compressed air tank concealed on the actors to set off a normal bullet hit with out squibs and have the actors set it off themselves. This would depend on the way it was shot and finding tanks or whatever small enough to conceal. This technique was used with squibs in the movie "Running Time" with Bruce Campbell. It's just an idea, I'm not sure if it will help you. Also I'm not sure if this will give you the control you want for the sequence, since the timing would depend on the actors. |
Ghent_ep
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posted 03-13-2000 12:00 PM
Hmm, not a bad idea, you can use small CO2 cylinders that you buy for carbonating drinks or some BB Guns, I'm just not sure how to trigger them because generally they have to be puncture at the nose then a little valve is used to release the pressure after words. How to rig up a control device for a bunch of CO2 cylindars could be the ultimate answer to everything, but it will take a heck of lot of networking and cabling planning, plus how to work easily activate triggers. Anyone have an y good ideas for simple triggers (like something that doesn't require you to forceably puncture the cylindars, but allows you to release a short blast with a nob or someform of screw maybe?) for those small CO2 cylanders you can purchase? Man this is nice being able to have a forum to discuss concepts like this =)------------------
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Ghent
Endor Productions, Inc.
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gore master
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posted 03-13-2000 12:32 PM
The leg blown off by the mortar in the beginning was digitized. The guy was an amputee but the stump was digitized on. Just because you cannot do all the body hits with compressed air doesn't mean you can't do any of them. They used both in SPR. The blood hit, sprays etc. Where done with compressed air. They used SINK UNBLOCKERS for the airsource. I believe they can be filled with blood. There are small cans of air, etc that can be used. Dust off from photo-suppliers. There is even something Critter mentioned that he saw at comp usa. It was a small can with CO2 carts in it and was used for blowing stuff off of monitors(I THINK). But it is so small it can be carried in the hand. |
Ghent_ep
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posted 03-13-2000 01:09 PM
Yeap, the Dust Spray containers are what I generally use for blood hits, however, like I've said I can maybe have two or 3 tubes running which only about half the time have enough blast to spray the blood. I still need to find some sort of solution to have at least 5-6 blood hits which I can easily control. I need a way to trigger all these hits plus the bullet hits on objects and terrains off screen. One idea I've had is using a fountain machines triggering system, most of them have at least 8 or more varieties of syrups it must propel for very long distances as the Syrups are usually stored way in the back of the building, 40-50 feet away from the machine itself. Unfortunately picking one of those up will be a bit of a cost pinch, but it looks like only solution to have the full control I need since I can basically have trigger system of screen which I can repeatidly activate with the press of a button. Plus again this puts me back to restricting the movements of stunt men with all the cabling running up their body. So I guess I'm always going to run down to a trade off.------------------
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Ghent
Endor Productions, Inc.
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ECP
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posted 03-13-2000 06:01 PM
To do bullet hits in wood you put the bullet holes in the wood before you start filming, then you take some tape and put it on the backside of the bullet holes, you take some extra wood and fill in the holes but make sure the little pieces of wood is on top of the tape, when you start filming you have someone behind the wood and rip off the tape really fast and it looks like a bullet has shot throught the wood. if this doesnt make sense email and ill try to explain it better or even make a clip on it. |
Ghent_ep
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posted 03-13-2000 07:50 PM
It's a thrifty idea but that does not do very well for a bullet hit, unless it's off in the distance and the camera way of picking off the effect. Just about any video camera is going to show clearly that it's nothing like a blast, but just appearing holes pretty much. Great for an extremely low budget/background hits, but very poor frontline effect. You get no splinter effect, you get a clear image of a pre-bored hole, and it doesn't give any puff or bursting effect, sure real bullets don't make things blow out the way they do in movies and theatrical shows, but the real ones just don't look as good in the movies =)------------------
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Ghent
Endor Productions, Inc.
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Jeff F
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posted 03-13-2000 10:16 PM
Trade offs are inevitable. Every film has to work within a budget, even bloated Hollywood ones.You may have to rethink the cutting of your scene. Say you want 100 hits of various types in a 20 second sequence. If this were made up of oh ... 10 two second shots, this would require 10 "hits" per shots - manageable. You may have to shoot the thing shot by shot, re-rigging between takes, and doing a new set up as you prep for each sequence - as SPFX sequences sometimes require. Just make sure you have a good craft services table set up to keep cast and crew happy - and plenty of Polaroid film for the continuity person. Your Wardrobe key can double as continuity. This may take a few looooong weekends of shooting, even if you try to do it as efficiently as possible. You will have to storyboard this thing out, so play with the timing of the cuts and get the most impact from your hits as possible. Sound effects added in post can increase the apparent number of hits/explosions. BTW - I see from your profile that you are a Michigander too! Up in Ada, you won't have so many cops per square inch as down here in the Metro-Detroit area, but then again Sheriff Joe might be looking for some excitement and relish busting a movie crew who don't have their I's dotted and their T's crossed. You may have to look around for a pyrotechnician to hire. That isn't a plug - I only work with magicians in that regard.
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Jeff F - Magic and FX
Amazing the Masses |
Ghent_ep
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posted 03-14-2000 12:28 AM
Yeaper, very good support from the Michigan community, but everything has gotten tighter since Columbine, not much anyone can do about that unfortunately. Not that that's a bad thing, just kind of a pinch on the struggling film maker. I'd definately like to look into acquiring certification, just haven't gotten around to really contacting the local fire department on the resources yet. Thanks again.------------------
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Ghent
Endor Productions, Inc.
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Dale Jenner
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posted 03-14-2000 04:12 AM
Yes you would need multiple tanks and and solinoid valves to control the air cannons, all you need to do is hook the solinoid valve up to a switch and then the power source, you can eiter but air tanks or make your own out off thick metal pipe and screw on end caps. Im sure you know that most films arn't shot continuosly, especially battle scenes, one small part is shot then they move the camera and start again and so on. So you can use the same cannons over again you just have to reposition it and reload. For wood hits you would probally have to use squibs. Like i said in SPR they used both squibs and compressed air cannons, because the cost of using all squibs for thier scence would have been a lot, look how much it cost them to make the movie now, imagine how much it would have cost them to make it with thousands of squibs at $7 each or whatever it is. All im saying is is cheper in the long run to use compressed air and they can be triggered pretty much same way as squibs.Im not sure what you plan to shoot on but it wont take 10-20 gig for a 10 second sequence. If you want to use squibs, some manufacturers have training courses and you get a certificate to say you know how to use thier products, so you may be able use that sort of thing. Dale Jenner |
Ghent_ep
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posted 03-14-2000 12:10 PM
Yeah, by the sound of it, it looks like I will have to sepperate it into multiple shots by the sound of it. However I do know that some of the shots I want to do are shots that are taking in a single sequence, but I guess there's really no way I can go about it without a huge budget dip. My mind is trapped in a Hong Kong filming viewpoint where there are single shots with 100+ hits going off at one time. Plus the fact that the actors and stunt men aren't complete wusses like these Americans and all their safety/insurance crap =) As for the digital comment, I was talking about real film being digitized for full theatrical movies such as Saving Private Ryan, each frame has to be capture at photo-realistic quality as in film each frame is literally a photo in itself. That's not the digital video we deal with these days, that's 25-30+ meg single frames they're working with, and that really adds up fast in disc space if that was a cost they worried about. I honestly do not believe that squibs are an expensive item at $7 a pop in a film these days, it's just part and parcel of their standard effects tool. Going the digital route to recreate that only allows them more safety with the actors, but it's much more costly when it comes down to it.------------------
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Ghent
Endor Productions, Inc.
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bbp
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posted 03-20-2000 05:23 PM
for single shots triggered by the actor you can get portable bike pumps that use the same co2 cartiges as the airguns. If anyone can still find the old reebok pumps they work great. (remember the old shaq pumps reebok came out with) they used this pump thats similar to the ones they use for bikes. just hook up tube (air tubing in petstores) and do what you gotta do. I was at models a few years ago and they still sell the pumps picked up a few of them for a 2 bucks a piece came with two co2 tanks. it's great for co2 hits because the trigger is really sensitive. a similar device can be found here for around 10 bucks http://www.performancebike.com (enter co2 as your search string) |
Ghent_ep
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posted 03-20-2000 10:45 PM
You know, if it wasn't for the fact that I'm straight, I'd kiss you, aww hell, I'll kiss you anyway. BRILLIANT Solution! I bow before you =)------------------
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Ghent
Endor Productions, Inc.
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SeerSavant
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posted 03-21-2000 11:48 AM
Hey, Ghent, for a cheap quick and cost effective way, I've gotten fond of running a short bit of surgical tubing along an actors body ending in a large medical syringe in their pocket or someplace similar where they can depress the plunger themselves. (It also gives them the ability to control their own ends, eliminating much of the misscues and timing problems with less expereinced actors.)
Just an alternative, hope it helps.------------------
Hence, loathed Melancholy,
Of Cerberus, and blackest Midnight born,
In Stygian cave forlorn,
'Mongst horrid shapes, and shrieks, and sights unholy.
-- L'Allegro, John Milton |
Zumdahl
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posted 03-21-2000 06:31 PM
BBP THAT WAS AWESOME. That is probably the best solution I've heard. You could rig up tubing to the small portable bike pumps and rig them how you want. I have a question though, how powerful are those pumps? If you used small tubing how far do you think the blood could be shot out? Hey if you wanted to due multiple hits, couldn't you use one pump and just use a series of tubes behind the person. Someone could branch off tubes from the central one pinching them off using alligator clips or some sort of clamp,then take the clips off of specific tubes for specific body hits, hitting the CO2 trigger at the right time.
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lyvewyer
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posted 03-21-2000 07:37 PM
would it be possible/feasable to maybe get some servos and a remote control, and then rig it up so that when you push the button on the remote it would push the servo, and then trigger the co2 cartridge remotely, that way the actor could have the stuff concealed on him/her, and not have to worry about doing it themselves, also, this would eliminate the possibility of getting caught up by the wires.------------------
I was normal once..... I didn't like it.
sweet merciful crap! my car! - homer simpson
check my site http://members.xoom.com/lyvewyer/index.html |
Elurew
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posted 03-21-2000 07:41 PM
yeah great idea, i'm gonna seriously gonna look into using that...but one inquiry/word of caution. When co2 cartridges are released...don't they get extremely cold??? I guess that outer cylinder could protect it some but just wondering if you've tried it? otherwise... well, just gotta be more careful with it...don't wanna cold burn |
Ghent_ep
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posted 03-21-2000 09:50 PM
I hereby declare this day Bbp day!------------------
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Ghent
Endor Productions, Inc.
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