Sheets of polystyrene plastic
Sheets of polystyrene plastic- special effects and filmmaking
I was very inspired yesterday going through the DH2 site seeing how to vacuum form masks and stormtrooper suits. I don't want to remake starwars gear, rather some origial sci-fi military gear.
The problem is, does anyone know where to buy sheets of polystyrene plastic for vacuum moulding in the Sydney area? Alternatively, does anyone know of any other plastic used instead of polystyrene that may be more easily accessable (effectswizard, this may be your area).
I've done a ring around and I can't find anyone who sells it.
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Sausage's Lounge Area
Yeah, those tutorials are sweet.
I might have to try it too.
I have no idea where to find the plastic, but you might want to ask somebody in construction or something.
You could also use a search engine, but you've probly already done that.
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http://www.jacksloan.com
"Humans rule!
Dolphins can SUCK IT!"
-- UCB
Yeah, tried that. I'm now going through the phone book.
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Sausage's Lounge Area
I found a site for Pabrico Panels Ltd.
They actually made some props for some Star Wars movies!
Their site is located here:http://www.eps.i12.com/
I also found another site:http://www.thomasregional.com/scal/ips
AND
http://www.plasticsnet.com/
Hope some of those help.
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http://www.jacksloan.com
"Humans rule!
Dolphins can SUCK IT!"
-- UCB
Hi Sloan,
Thanks for the links, but I'm looking for Australian suppliers (Sydney) and these are all links to the US and UK with no O/S distribution. Thank you for passing on the links though.
You know, it seems like getting any raw materials in Aust is difficult. When I first bought resin, it was a nightmare.
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Sausage's Lounge Area
You can also use polyethylene, polyporpylene, and copoly (a blend of the other two polys). They don't need too much heat, about 350 is more than enough. You may need to have something such as nylon (like pantyhose) on the mold to get an even vacuume. Check with any plastics company in your area, they should carry at least one of these. Let me know what you can get a hold of and I will send you more information on that type.
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Rex Winfrey
Critter Creation Shop
Thanks, Critter. I've located a supplier who starts in thicknesses of 0.5mm. On the DH2 site, he mentions that his plastic is .080 gauge (OH-eight-gauge).
Is he talking about US imperial? What would be the metric equivalent, or does he mean metric 0.08mm. That's awfully thin for a mask.
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Sausage's Lounge Area
The .080 is the thickness in inches. It would be about 2mm. The .5mm is very thin, about .0197 inches. That would probably pop before it went all the way into/around the mold. You need to consider how deep you need to draw the plastic. If the object is 4 inches across, and 4 inches deep, you need the plastic at least 3 times as thick as the final piece should be. Not knowing what you are pulling, I can't really give you too much advice on how thick you need to buy.
I hope this helps. If you can give me an idea on the objects's size, I can help a little more. Just email me.
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Rex Winfrey
Critter Creation Shop
Going back to the book on vacuum forming that I am using to build mine from, the guy recommends .020, .040. and .060 as the reasonable thicknesses to hold shape for masks and other fairly rigid pieces. I think ABS plastic in the proper thicknesses can also be used - at least according to what this guy says about it - along with the polypropolene and polyethelene as Critter notes.
Good luck!!
FXMan
I'll be making masks. Not stormtrooper ones, more like paintball masks. You can see a picture here:
http://206.171.94.17/jtusa/JTWebImages/XFireBlk.JPG
It seems to be a few inches deep. I guess I'd need about a 0.5mm on this?
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Sausage's Lounge Area
Can't you just buy a mask?
The one I bought wasn't that expensive. The only thing is, the ear protectors are foam, not plastic.
It's an X-Fire too.
Oh, how many are you planning to make? If you need to make like ten or something, then I can see why you want to vaccu.
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http://www.jacksloan.com
"Humans rule!
Dolphins can SUCK IT!"
-- UCB
I'm planning on making around 20 - 25 complete with some extra body armor and so forth. My wife is not impressed with this new interest. I want some kitchen space and a rack in the oven.
I even went as far as to offer her some space my garage as a trade. That didn't help. So many obstacles...
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Sausage's Lounge Area
After looking at what you are wanting to make, I suggest that you do not use styrene. It is stiff, but is also a little brittle. I would use the polyethylene. As far as thickness, I would go about 3/16 of an inch, or about 5mm. That may end up being a little thin, but you can go up if you need. That would give you a wall thickness of around 1.5 to 1.8mm, but that will also vary from one area to another. The sides will be the thinnest, probably about 1.0 to 1.2mm, maybe even thinner. The thicker areas will be a little over 2mm. Think of the thickness of a sprue on a plastic modle, the tree that the parts are on. That is about 1/8 inch (1.5mm)styrene. Here milk bottles are made from polyethylene, the milky colored translucient plastic, but only about .2mm thick. When you make parts out of 5mm material, it is very strong, but will still give some. You will probably want to heat the plastic a little more than normal. Not a higher temperature, just a little longer. That way it will have more 'droop'. If you are using a negative mold, the plastic will sit further down into the mold before you turn on the vaccume, and you will have less varience in the wall thickness. If you are using a positive mold, use the same heating as for a negative mold. When you take the plastic out of hte oven, just before you put it over the mold, flip it over and set it down quickly. that way you are kind of putting a bubble over the mold. Bump the vaccume, to draw the plastic down the rest of the way slowly. If you have some gloves that will take a good bit of heat, you can press around the base of the mold to help keep the plastic straight. You only have about 30 seconds to get the plastic under full vaccume, but that is really plenty of time. The plastic needs to cool under vaccume untill it is back to room temperature, and then a little longer. If you take it off too soon, it will try to flex back flat a little. the hotter it is when you release the vaccume the more it will distort. You can blow air on the plastic to cool it. Once you can turn the vac off, you can let it set over night, or soak it in cool water for about 15 minutes to finish setting the form. Then you can pull it from the mold.
I do this stuff just about every day, so let me know if you need more help.
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Rex Winfrey
Critter Creation Shop
Great! Thank you for all that. I'll send of another mail to the company and check prices on the different types.
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Sausage's Lounge Area
Ok, just got off the phone and found a place reasonably local to me.
polyethylene sheet 2000mm x 1000mm is $AUS70 + TAX
polystyrene sheet 2000mm x 1000mm is $AUS12 + TAX
I think polystyrene is the way to go for the moment till I learn the craft a bit. Thank you everyone for your tips and advice. Now to get that space in the kitchen....
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Sausage's Lounge Area
[This message has been edited by sausage (edited 05-16-2000).]
Make sure you don't over heat the plastic. If you do, you will never be allowed within 10 feet of the oven again. It should not be bad at all. I promis it is not as bad as cooking foam latex. Teresa was asleep the first time I did that at home. She wanted to know which dog left a pile in the house, even though they are house broken. I had to tell her it wasn't the dogs, and it would only be another 4 1/2 hours till I was through.
Good luck, and yell if you need any help.
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Rex Winfrey
Critter Creation Shop
i have used petg before, its clear and you can beat the crap out of it, fold it in half in sheet form without breaking it, but i cant remember the full name for the life of me. its a bit more expensive then styrene, but if you expect to hit these masks in any way, you may consider it...and i'm sure someone will know what "petg" stands for....
i've used it for understructures in animatronics too...i like it better then ps since its clear and strong, just my 2¢
later
Tom
i just noticed your statement about making "original" stuff, last time i checked copying something isnt original...are you making something similar?
[This message has been edited by crazy lou (edited 05-16-2000).]
crazy lou:
do you mean PETE? Its the same sorta stuff they use to make coke bottles here out of, its clear and very strong.
Dale Jenner
Sausage and Sloan, which tutorials are you speaking of? Can you post a link? Thanks....
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AOL IM - EyesRMaced
Yeah, the tutorials are located here:
http://www.studiocreations.com/howto/index.html
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http://www.jacksloan.com
"Humans rule!
Dolphins can SUCK IT!"
-- UCB
Oh...ok. Thanks. I thought ya'll meant somethig else. I know Jeff....he's a hack.
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AOL IM - EyesRMaced
how much do these vaccuform things cost? i might be interested in getting into this, a reply in the next few days would be nice, as there is a community yard sale going on this saturday, and i might be able to find a stove or oven or something that i could set up in the basement.
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I was normal once..... I didn't like it.
pray for mojo
you sold me queer giraffes!
check my site http://www.novicepictures.com
Well Lyvewyre,
The cost of a good vacuum form machine can run into the many multiple thousands of dollars. HOWEVER, you can gather reasonable components and make one that is really quite good for next to nothing. The heat source is the main issue and then whatever you use to "draw down" the plastic after it's been heated and placed over the mold on the vacuum table or box (whatever size you decide to build). It usually takes a good shop vac to pull it down tight enough to get excellent detail and really should be a commercial vaccuum pump. I have a 3/4 horsepower compressor that doubles as a vacuum compressor. They say to do it in two stages - first pulling it down with a shop vac as far as it will go. And when that has reached the maximum draw the vacuum pump takes over and draws it WAY tight into the mold to get the best detail. It requires almost 30 inces of mercury (the measurement for vacuum) to draw that tight. Shop vacs can do about anywhere from 24 - 27 or 28.5 or so. That isn't too bad. As the maximum you ever draw is 30 inches I believe it is. Somewhere I understand that vacuum can't go anymore than that - it can just go longer but will never exceed that measurement. I don't really understand physics but it's something like that. I have two started and ultimately I'll have about $100 or so apiece in them. The small ones even run about $450 if you buy one already made.
I hope this helps.
FXMan
Crazy Lou,
I'm just looking at the painball mask as a bit of inspiration. The actual masks and suits will be original. When I went paintballing once, I thought the masks were really cool. But I wouldn't want anyone recognising a paintball mask in the film.
It doesn't matter if the masks break during filming. There'll be a few made and I'll just make another.
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Sausage's Lounge Area
you ever see star wars: return of the jedi? compare those x-fire masks with the scout trooper helmets...i have a x-fire a soft stream and a bunch o' paintballing equipment (used to play a lot, now it collects dust)
i have actually seen some of those paintball masks in movies, i always laugh when i do.
well, good luck w the VF and the masks, let us see some pics when you finally get them done
later
Tom
Booyah! Good Luck
err?
Hey... our first "hot topic". Neat.
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Sausage's Lounge Area
I work in a plastic plant, injection molding. So if you need some technical info on some form of plastic, I can find out for you.
Hi Nitestrm,
Well I have one on polyester resins but I'll post that out in the main area.
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Sausage's Lounge Area
Why is this post burning?
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fxscooby
DreamFX
hehe, i was wondering why the post was burning too. its cuz it has more than 25 replies
pTgR
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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
H.L. Mencken
Sausage- why worry about using a paintball mask? They wore hockey gloves in "Alien".
Yeah... but that's not my style. I like the masks but I have a design that I want to make from scratch.
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Sausage's Lounge Area
This all sounds nifty, but how do you get some plastic thats been heated to 350 degrees out of an over and flip it over onto a mold without melting it to yourself or risking melting it to yourself, or squealing like a girle man and dropping it on yourself, thus being melted to a hot sheet of plastic. Maybe Im just a weener.
hey, fxman, you say youve got about 100 bucks in both of your vaccuform thingies? where do ya find a shop vac that cheap? Those things are stinking expensive from what I've seen
Ivan, you can get a shop vac (4 1/4 HP) for about $60, on sale at least, the other stuff isnt that expensive. an electric grill is someplace in the ball park of $30. and his arent quite finished yet. that was each i think, not $100 total, but you dont really need to buy 2 vacuums unless you plan on using them at the same time.
a real vacuform (at least the ones i've used) has the heating element on the top facing downwards, directly over the vacuum table portion, when the plastic's hot enough you just pull the holding frame and the plastic down onto your form so you dont really have to worry about burning yourself, unless of course you stick your hands into the hot plastic, or heating element, but thats about as dumb as sticking your hand into an oven
later
Tom
oh, ok, that makes sense, hehe. Fer these homemade ones, how do you go about moving the heated plastic to the mold? man, 60 bucks for a shop vac. whoo, thats a lot lower than when we bought ours. twas at least 100, and that was a cheap one.
hehe, this is so interesting, makes me want to come up with something to make a vaccuform of. lessee now........
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Belly buttons - The natural lint trap.
Ivan, I'll try to send you sme pictures of how I do it. I have to find them again. As far as how I move it, the plastic is in a stainless steel fram, and I use gloves that will handle a good 400 degrees. They are easy to find, look in any saftey supply catalog for mill work gloves. A pair elbow high can be as little as 15 bucks.
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Rex Winfrey
Critter Creation Shop
ok...I know I probably sound like an idiot, seeing as how you all seem to know what you're talking about, but what is this DH2 site you speak of??
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Applesauce
Oh, wow, thats a pretty decent price. Now Im gettin really interested here, I need to think of something to make, haha.
Hey Tom and Ivan,
The $100 for the vacuum form machines are for both of them HOWEVER, that is for the forming box, the heater and small parts only not the vacuum source.. I got all the parts for the heater (the electric grill) from Sunbeam directly for $25 bucks. Two sets of everything (I'm making one for a friend of mine). But all the other small parts as well as the lumber and such barely added up to the $100 bucks. That cost DOESN'T include the vacuum. I already have two other sources I planned to use. One, is an old bike pump redone in "reverse" to create a vaccum pump instead of an air pump. It will pull all the vacuum you'd need to do a good job. The other is a nearly $300 compressor I have that doubles as a vacuum pump (3/4 HP) and therefore I didn't need the vacuum cleaners. I have a shop vac that will do the stage one pull and then when that does all it can, the secondary source - the vacuum pump - kicks in and will finish the pull as tight as it could get before the plastic gets too cool. Mine uses the Sunbeam electric grill which is still available at Wal-Mart I think for like $39 bucks and will do anything up to about 9" X 12" or smaller. Anything larger you'd need a bigger machine and heat source. But the $100 is "to date" cost and I know it will come to more than that when it's all built. And if I then figure in the cost of the things I already have, then that will make a difference.
But they're so easy to build and use except for having the heat source big enough to do what you need. The guy who wrote the book on it recommends using a machine as close to your heat source as you can so you don't waste time getting the plastic to the forming table and getting your pieces made.
Good luck!!
FXMan
[This message has been edited by FXMan (edited 05-20-2000).]
ok FX, i mistunderstood your site, thought that was $100 each, but now that you explain it, it makes much more sense.
well, i went out and bought one of those 4 1/4 Hp shop vacs, hooked it up to the table i was building, good news, its completely sealed bad news is my stupid frames i made have plastic 
corner connectors, so i have to rebuild them (i am really stupid and forgetful while walking around my local 24-7 home depot buying parts for this on a whim)
but anyway, i have all the parts, i know that the table itself will work, now all i have to do is whip up some holding frames and test this bugger out!
wish me luck.
ivan, do you build a lot of stuff? or are you more of a CGI man? if you build models, you can cut down your time if you have anything that repeats a lot, small detailed panels, you can actually make model kits with one, plus armor and other cool stuff.
later
TOm
Scelepics, read the post again. Someone else already asked that.
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Sausage's Lounge Area
could someone post a pic or two of some stuff youve done with vaccuform, id like to see what results you can get.
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I was normal once..... I didn't like it.
pray for mojo
you sold me queer giraffes!
check my site http://www.novicepictures.com
yeah, i'll post a couple things as soon as i get them scanned. they were done with a "real" vacuform machine...but i do plan on testing mine out tomorrow night using the shop vac i bought, so maybe i'll grab a pic of that too.
gimme a day or two
later
TOm
Let me guess you go a bunch of your friends to wright on your post to see if the flame would work??...JK
well, heres a pic of a model submarine i made using pretty much scraps of acrylic and a couple vacuform parts this is only about 6 inches long.
the top and bottom are the pieces that were vacuformed over an acrylic and bondo form, the fins and scopes are acrylic scrap, and the tower is 2 tubes for the ends, some styrene for the sides and top, add some "borrowed" decals, model parts, and an airbrused paintjob and voila submarine de jour
not the greatest job, but i think it looks pretty good...except for the crappy "setting"
later
Tom
well, i finally tested my homemade vacuformer and it actually WORKS!!!
i got a hunk of .080" HIPS (about 3/32 inch High Impact PolyStyrene) from work to test out my awesome building skills. on a simple curved surface i tested it on, and only allowing the plastic to droop about 2-3 inches i took it out, put it on the machine and hit the vacuum. my mom was holding the "table" and when the plastic popped it scared the hell out of her...but the important thing is that it worked, it worked on a thicker piece of plastic that i would need and my plastic corner pieces didnt show any sign of heat damage, let alone melting (which i was really concerned about)
anyway, i probably spent a total of $20 for the table materials, plus the shop vac...if you're interested in the plans, http://www.likeastory.com/boards/Forum9/HTML/000799.html it has the source for my plans...i'll post a pic of this first test piece once i get a pic of it if anyone cares
later
Tom
[This message has been edited by crazy lou (edited 05-24-2000).]
hey, here's the pic of the test piece, uncut and unedited, just pieced together from 2 different pics
later
TOm
heres a pic of the (prototype)table that i built, its missing one piece that i had to add to connect the check valvu to the shop vac, but its an easy weekend project
later
Tom
It doesn't really seem that hard to build.
How long did it take you?
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JACKSLOAN.COM
Bananas taste delicious.
Crazy Lou, looking at the picture of the steel table with all the vacuum holes... what stops the soft plastic from getting sucked into each hole?
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Sausage's Lounge Area
it really didnt take long to build at all, and i am trying to think of why i didnt do it before. total time was probably less then 5 hours, plus waiting for the silicone to dry completely...
the "directions" i went by said to rivet a piece of window screen to the top of the table, but they also said to use 1/4" holes...i drilled 3/16" and with the thicker plastic and shorter heating time it seems ok, i also spaced the holes closer and added more of them then in the "directions"...on the next table i will use 1/8 (or smaller) and probably space them 1/2" apart.
on thinner plastic i would recommend trying the screen idea , but maybe inside the top pan, i dont know how it would work.
this is pretty much all it took:
2 11"x17" aluminum cookie sheets
2 feet of 1" PVC pipe
1 11/4" sump pump check vavle
1 11/4" threaded pipe flange (either PVC or metal)
1 tube silicone sealant
window screen frame kit (2 pieces of stock and 2 sets of corner pieces)
a couple inches of elastic
paper clamps
assorted nuts, bolts and pop rivets
a shopvac
total cost for materials alone roughly $25.00, plus the shop vac($60.00)=$85.00 and many of these things give you way more then you need, you only use a fraction of the tube of silicone, not all of the screen stock, so you could build a small machine for less money. which is what i think i'm going to do next, or maybe a vacuum chamber for silicone degassing....
later
TOm
Cool. Did you use the directions from the DH2 site or some of your own?
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Because bananas taste delicious.
fine scale modeler march '98 vol.16, no.3 pages 76-79
basically i built the one in there, but "tweaked" it to my personal likes. nothing major, i think i mentioned everything i did differently in the last post
later
TOm
Tom, you didn't answer from before... what stops the soft plastic from getting sucked into the holes when you turn the vac on?
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Sausage's Lounge Area
FX, i add the plastic in post
well if the holes are small enough that helps out, but the plans call for the screen (see last post)to be rivited to the top to prevent this. if this is going to be your first attempt, i'd recommend using the screen(window screen, the kind to prevent bugs from getting in your house)i just didnt feel like messing with it.
later
TOm
Does Fine Scale Modeler have a site where I might be able to get the plans?
Also, would a store such as Lowe's have the 0.080 Polystyrene?
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Because bananas taste delicious.
http://www.kalmbach.com/fsm/finescale.html
just go to the order back issues section, they have the magazine for $4.50
and i dont know if Lowe's would have the styrene, you might want to check at hobby shops or model stores
later
Tom
Cool. Thanks for all the info!
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Because bananas taste delicious.
so, has anyone built one yet? in the process of building one?
just curious, but always willing to help out if you get stuck
later
Tom
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I'm picking up some sheets this saturday and I'll be building the box over the weekend. Possibly finishing it the following weekend. I hope.
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